KX500 Panthera Electric starter information

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KX500 Panthera Electric starter information

Post by Sandblaster » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:50 pm

FL_Sharpshooter at KXRIDERS shared with me the following info on his E-Start for his CR500R.

I have some useful information regarding that electric starter setup that may be of help to you (If it's the same as the cr500 one that is.) First of all, I believe the electric starter motor is made by DB electrical. It is used on machines like the Coleman ATV and UTVs. If it's the same starter as the CR500 one I have, it's part #SCH0093. It looks like to me that all Panthera has done is ground down a mounting point and flipped the cap around. The starter is CCW (counter clockwise) and is 9 tooth. I believe the supplied solenoid is also made by DB Electrical #SMU6096. Which brings me to another problem that I had this past week, I just felt compelled to tell you in case you have the same problem. I had the solenoid stick on me, which caused the starter to drain my battery. Obviously a bad chinese solenoid, I ended up buying a better solenoid (a genuine honda solenoid -- almost the same solenoid on every street bike, this one was off a 2014 CRF250L). Also, what electrical starter button are you going with? A ktm button? What kind of bike are you making this build in to? Is it a dual sport? As in, are you going to have plenty of accessories such as lights, a mirror, turn signals, etc? I have a ton of good information on all of that if you would be interested.

On my electric starter assembly, when I assembled it, I noticed when I had the top cover off (gear cover), I could not spin the clutch gear by hand. You could feel it was stuck/binding. Upon closer examination, I could see the gear was contacting the inside cover a small amount. After taking the assembly back off, I was able to see that the CNC machine missed an area on the inside cover. I had to take a dremel and grind a small amount of material off of the cover in order for the clutch gear to clear. Once bolted back together, I could spin it by hand with no problem at all of it binding (I would suspect that this is why a lot of other people using this assembly are having intermittent spark problems). Now this may or may not be a problem for you, but I would just check to be sure.

I can say without a doubt that the Antigravity AG-801 is the greatest battery to use for this starter. It turns it over very easily, it's the same battery a lot of the KTM 250/300 XC riders are going over to. Which is convenient, seeing as how I used a KTM battery box. It puts out a solid 240 Cranking Amps. I also used OEM KTM battery cables (again, convenient due to their cables coming with boot covers) and their ground cable.

It's very convenient and easy to use a KTM starter button. What wasn't very easy and convenient was tracking down the corresponding female 4-way wire connector that KTM uses on that electric start button. This is necessary because you don't want to have to change the electrical ends every time if the start button ever breaks. KTM basically just runs 2 wires and uses a black wire as a loop. You will need to run 2 wires from the female 4-way wire connector all the way back to the starter solenoid (the wires go in the top part of the solenoid). Which brings you to another problem (finding the connector that plugs in the solenoid). Luckily, I located both of these connectors and some good quality 18 AWG wire.

There are only select few sites that will sell 18 AWG wire in small quantities. I originally wanted to use 18 AWG TXL wire, but was unable to find the correct colors, so I settled on the thicker jacketed GXL wire. Here's where to find that: https://4rcustomswire.com/t/18-gauge-gxl. It was very hard to track down the ktm e-start plugin, but I found the plugin, as well as the locking terminals. They are actually made by Molex. They can be found here: https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/ ... 6-ND/61300. If you scroll down, it will say "Mating Products", this shows the male connector. Scroll down more to where it says "Associated Product" and it shows the terminals that go inside the female pin (#0002092118).

Now, for the solenoid connector, I found that plugin here: http://www.cycleterminal.com/solenoid-connectors.html. This one comes with the locking terminals. This site also has some very cool, hard to find connectors (such as the old-style flat 2-way plug): http://www.vintageconnections.com.

What made my wiring so easy for my dual sport was the use of the VSM (Vancouver Supermoto) Harness. It's a super trick harness that a gentleman by the name of Mark makes out of Canada. What it basically does is routes everything cleanly in sheathing and runs everything completely off the battery (which means no dim lights). The entire harness is fused with mini-fuses as well, you'll have to check it out if you haven't heard of it before. Mark can pretty much build a wire harness for any bike.

Hopefully this information will be of help to you and others. I would be glad to help more If you have any questions.

Brett


PS
I forgot to give you the part # for the correct Honda solenoid. The solenoid that the CRF250L uses, as well as the other big bikes that use that same solenoid has been superseded to a different part number entirely. That part # is 06353-MT4-306, it comes with the solenoid as well as 3 different size fuses (you'll use the 30A one).
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Re: Panthera Electric starter

Post by Sandblaster » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:55 am

This short vid was sent to me showing a early version setup

https://youtu.be/jLemjMaG4XQ
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Re: Panthera Electric starter

Post by Sandblaster » Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:16 pm

Here is some news from Brett Coop:

***IMPORTANT INFORMATION FOR KX500 & CR500 RIDERS USING PANTHERA MOTORSPORTS ELECTRIC STARTER***

This is important information for those of you who are having problems with your starter turning over. You will be able to hear something like a “ZING” noise. It won’t sound like the starter is engaging the gears. This is due to the limiter gear slipping and not engaging the other gears.

This may be common knowledge for some of you, but I have recently discovered that gear oil IS NOT compatible with this starting system. As I’m sure many of you know, using friction modified oil is a no-no in a wet clutch application. This is because it allows the clutch to slip terribly. Panthera Motorsports was very vague in their instructions to add “gear oil.” I assumed this meant as the name implies; gear oil. For over the past year, I have been running 75W-140 gear oil. I have noticed that sometimes the starter just spins and doesn’t engage with the gears. It makes a distinct “ZING” sound. It sounds like the limiter gear is slipping. That’s because it is. This is mainly a problem on a cold start. I have noticed that it would start easier when the system was warm/hot. I can now only assume that’s due to the gear oil thinning out at a higher temperature, allowing the gears to engage better.

To remedy this problem, DO NOT use gear oil rated for a differential. This includes oil that is marketed as: GL-5 (Hypoid), EC (Energy Conserving), or Friction Modified. All of these types of oils WILL NOT allow the starter to engage fully. You need to use transmission oil rated for a wet clutch system. Personally, I’m going to be using Belray’s Gear Saver Thumper 80W-85 transmission oil. I’m sure there are other compatible oils such as Pro Honda HP transmission oil.

I can say that after running this type of oil, I haven’t heard the gears slip even once. The engagement is pretty much immediate. I figured this may be of help to some of you experiencing problems with your starter.
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Re: Panthera Electric starter

Post by Sandblaster » Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:41 pm

Here is my personal experience.
I have not had any of the troubles above because I am using the following:
Belray’s Gear Saver 80W-85 oil.
I upgraded the Relay before I ever installed it.
Sorry, I bought a generic brand but it was noticeably larger than the relay that came with it.
I wired it up using quality wiring and switches.
I had probably 50 or more starts on it during testing and tuning of the KtX500e.
I did not ride it except for the street and dyno.
The day before I was going to leave for the MXA shootout the rear mount broke :o
So I had a day to figure something out...



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Re: KX500 Panthera Electric starter information

Post by Sandblaster » Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:44 pm

Jason tanner, myself and Travis Brewer put our heads together and all came up with the same idea.
First we needed a piece to fit on the back of the starter to support it.
I made a quick CAD drawing and Travis burned it out on his plasma machine out of some Stainless Steel.
After a few changes we came up with this.


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Re: KX500 Panthera Electric starter information

Post by Sandblaster » Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:48 pm

Next we made a piece that would weld to the previous bracket at a 90 degree angle.
Stainless Steel is incredibly strong.
Once Vince Brewer welded this thing together you could hang a pickup truck from it :shock:


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We did not make a CAD drawing of it but we will be doing that once we make it to fit standard KX500 cases and not the TSR Billet cases.
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Re: KX500 Panthera Electric starter information

Post by Sandblaster » Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:50 pm

I gave it a quick polish, mounted it to the bike, loaded up the bike and drove to Glen Helen for the MXA Shootout.
The starter had no issues and held up very well.
It wasn't perfect but with a little polishing you would never know that it did not come with the kit.
So, if you buy a Starter I would preempt the issue and make your own adapter similar to what we made.


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Re: KX500 Panthera Electric starter information

Post by Sandblaster » Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:53 pm

EXTRA SPECIAL THANKS! Goes to Jason, Travis, and his father Vince for pulling my hind end out of the fire... 8-)
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Re: KX500 Panthera Electric starter information

Post by Sandblaster » Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:59 pm

Oh yeah... I also bought 4 longer bolts for the front access cover.
The bolts that came with it are a bit short for my comfort ;)
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Re: KX500 Panthera Electric starter information

Post by Sandblaster » Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:57 am

Replacement starter info..
DB Electrical

SCH0093

I put that number into ebay and 59 bucks is about the least expensive I could find.
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